Lawyers arrived in Port Stephens today to gather support for a class action against the federal government over jet noise.
So far 60 people have joined a local developer who started the action, claiming noise mapping for the new Joint Strike Fighters bound for Williamtown has devalued properties in the area.
An information session on the matter is currently underway.
“The Commonwealth should be looking after the local residents and looking after after their needs and wants, as well as, the needs of the nation.”
Jet aircraft have been flying in and out of Williamtown airbase long before the people who are initiating a class action moved in there. They need to accept that fact and learn to live with it. Surely the commercial jets which use the airports are equally noisy despite new engine-quietening technology? What will they do about them? Close the airport down?
archie, you are so naive and uninformed. Bring on the commercial jets that have government controls and state laws to obey. The RAAF jets are built for a very different reason. Thanks goodness for that, I wouldn’t be without them. But do they need to be here. No, go west young men, where you can make a much noise as you like.
Aircraft Noise complaints fall into two categories: i) the impact of CURRENT noise from CURRENT aircraft operations, and ii) property devaluation due to FUTURE noise based on theoretical FORECAST flight paths out to 2025.
The devaluation issue is a Federal Govt / Defence, State Govt and Local Govt issue and has no bearing or reflection on day to day RAAF operations or RAAF personnel.
It is an outrage that, in Sept-09 a block of land worth several hundred thousand dollars can be OK to build a house on, and then in Oct-09 that same block is deemed “Unacceptable to Build” and is therefore worthless, all because of theoretical / FUTURE noise relating to the F35/JSF program. And this occurred without any consultation or consideration of existing property owners who (prior to Oct-09) had not been in any aircraft “noise” zone that prohibit construction. It is a disgrace of massive proportions to be fixed by Federal, State and Local Government collaboration.
People who say “but the RAAF were here first” would change their tune pretty quick if their financial futures were decimated because of “lines on paper” that are at best a “poor guess” as to what the future aircraft noise will be; which is why the forecasts have already changed twice and are about to change again.
We support the RAAF and its personnel. We don’t support bad Govt processes that discriminate and inflict real financial pain and associated stress on members of our community. A caring Government certainly would not do that, and a caring neighbour would support those in need, not denigrate them.
Archie, for most of the people involved in this class action, it’s not actually about the noise – it’s about bureaucrats slapping building restrictions on our land to protect us from the noise that we weren’t really worried about anyhow. Some people have had their land value reduced to near-zero because the council has slapped impossible restrictions on any new buildings – even replacing a house that might have burnt down. Could you live with losing your life savings Archie?
OK I’m on a roll here. Archie, if you think that military jets aren’t any noisier than commercial jets, go and park at the end of the runway at Williamtown while the F/A-18s are flying, and see what’s noisier (hint: it will be the F/A-18s). Then try to imagine what a JSF would be like, because they are at least twice as loud as an F/A-18. The JSF is causing problems in the US and Canada much like we are experiencing here – public outcry – because it is an extraordinarily noisy aircraft. That’s why the noise contours have expanded so much and affected people who in the past had been nowhere near a noise zone.
Last comment: many people say that ‘The RAAF was here first’ when they hear that there is a debate about aircraft noise. Well, in a way they were here first – at RAAF Base Williamtown. There seems to be another definition of ‘here’ in some people’s minds though, but I’d love to have someone explain to me what that ‘here’ really is. Is it just Williamtown, or Saltash, Medowie, or Raymond Terrace? Or does it include Karuah, Oyster Cove, or Swan Bay? Might it go to Bulahdelah and Maitland in the future? The problem is, ‘here’ seems to expand every time the RAAF gets a noisier aircraft. As far as I’m concerned, I have a Section 149 certificate that says my property was not noise affected when I bought my house. Therefore ‘here’ does not include my property. The S149 says I was ‘here’ first. Trouble is, some people think they can pollute to their heart’s content and extend noise pollution wherever they want, and we have a Council that thinks it can simply issue new S149s that say previously unaffected land is now affected. Sorry, I don’t like bureaucrats putting their hand in my pockets and taking large slabs of money out. I fully support the RAAF and the job it does – I spent 35 years in the RAAF. But they don’t have the right to ruin Australian citizen’s lives without taking any responsibility. That’s why I’m getting on board with the class action.
Fully agree with NeilJB. The Polluter Pays Principle should apply. The current Federal Government is continually saying it about polluters and the carbon tax. In this case the Government is thenoise polluter and it should pay. Hypocrites!!!
RAAF have treated the people of Port Stephens abominably for too long.
There are plenty of uninhabited sites in our country to carry out practices for training personnel without disrupting the lives and well being of the general population.
The Air Weapons range is only one fifth of the size of every other range in this country. It was never designed for jet fighter aircraft.
The property owners of this region should not be dictated to by an entity that does not show any respect for them and appears to show no “duty of care”.
Archie, Where do you live?
Obviously not around the area bordering the Williamtown RAAF base.
Noise levels of the military aircraft currently using the base and Salt Ash Weapons Range has been registered at homes from 95dBA + per aircraft.
These aircraft do not just just take off and go somewhere, they go round and round in circuits for hours and hours and often into the night.
This is done over our schools, homes and businesses.
The new aircraft will be even louder….how are children supposed to learn?
Excessive noise, particularly from jet fighter aircraft is regarded as detrimental to general health and well being by the World Health Organisation.
Guys I don’t mean to start anything, but the base was there before the houses and I believe that that’s why it should stay there it’s not their faults the people living around them don’t like the noise they moved there so they kinda should have figured it was going to be noisy
Claire, did you read my post on what ‘here’ means? Could you help us out by defining where we should not have built houses?
Claire, people where here first, the native aboriginal, Salt Ash School 1853, followed by the church. Aircraft weren’t invented until 1906. Where is “here”.
Good morning all, I am new to the blog. I may be new to Salt Ash (14 years). I do have to agree with Neil JB on a number of issues.Yes the RAAF base was here first. Williamtown. Affected areas seem to be growing over the years.I think all people were affected in some way but not to this extent.it is now in my opinion out of control.Bureaucrats changing peoples lives with the stroke of a pen.If I was a developer building 50 houses where 25 were existing or a liscenced venue hotel / club seeking music / live entertainment I would have to seek approval to change in amenities, this would have to be put to public forum / local council etc for comment. Doesn`t seem the RAAF has to do such. Expand the base runways, increase the fly zones and change from a string quartet to the Rolling Stones. To date I have had no involvement in any of the class actions etc. I now see no other course of action but to join and dedicate time to getting some say in the future. Purchasing property is seen as an investment in an appreciating asset over a cycle of many years,safe and low risk. The value of property is on the slide in affected areas, forget about the VG reports look at the real estate reports. i have not even touched the theory of peoples rights to “quiet enjoyment of life”.I will get to that another time. Neil could you please give me the date of your original 149 cert, i believe it will be relevent and assistance to me doing some research. cheers!
Horsetrader, my original S149 is dated 9 March 2005, and it was produced while ANEF2012 was in force. ANEF 2012 dates back to 2003. I bought my house in June 2005. The RAAF issued ANEF2025 in October 2009, and I am now in a 20-25 zone in that document. All S149s issued after Oct 2009 will use the ANEF2025 to determine noise exposure.
If you need more information, look at http://www.medowie.nsw.au or http://www.safeears.net or http://www.saveourcastle.com where you will find information and links that should help you. There are plenty of contacts on those sites.
No saltashlady I mean the base not people that’s just a different story
Claire, there are quite a few properties affected by the latest noise contours that were there before the RAAF arrived in about 1942. See my earlier post about the definition of ‘here’. Also, you might be surprised at how far from Williamtown the effects reach. Try Brandy Hill – is that part of the ‘here’ or ‘there’ that shouldn’t be complaining about bureaucrats drawing lines on maps? Have a look at this http://www.defence.gov.au/id/2025_anef/williamtown/WLM%20SAWR%202025%20ANEF%20CONTOURS%20ENDORSED.pdf and ask yourself does the RAAF have the right to affect this much land? Everything inside the dotted blue line is affected.
The dogs that were on tonights news were pit bulls NOT Bull Terriers! NBN needs to make a public apology and correct this mistake. We breed and show Bull Terriers and it makes me angry that we are constantly having to correct uneducated people, your report has done nothing but damage the good name of our breed. Shame on you!
Neil, thanks for the info.i will investigate.After the blog this afternoon I contacted my solicitor to get a copy of the original 149 cert. both additions part 2 and part 5.Part 5 is the most relevent by stature as to restrictions and preceedents (as you probably realize, I think i was sitting a few rows behind you at RT bowling club on Wednesday night? it must have been salt ash lady to whom i gave my details to who put me in contact with this blog). I believe I am in the hot zone , I will check maps etc soon. Actually I am certain i am inh the hot zone as the planes use my roof and a line of trees to turn to the bombing range.( pilot info given).I will contact who i think is Salt Ash lady and see if we can meet.
Claire, I am lost or don`t understand what you are saying but I would like to meet you , this is about people making decisions about your life , your childrens life etc, without the ability for discussion or opinion. An e.g. is that I have recently been involved with Energy australia who demanded to change an existing easement on a property for power lines (lets say next to your house add a green tower to hold enough electricity to power a suburb ) without your concent.That may be different but i would be concerned about kids at Salt Ash school,
i suppose i am new at this but I think all people want is a council or government not to change the goal posts. God forbid anyone could change our lives as they have , thank God again they cant change your tax rate like this!
If the planes were flying over my place and making a racket and a half, the Council in 1999 would not have allowed me to build my house in the beautiful serene country area that was a new estate called Riverview Ridge.
The Defence has since decided it now wants to fly a noisy plane over my area which would be so noisy as to force the council to deem my place “Unacceptable to live on”
I was here FIRST……..Its just that Defence has decided to move the goal posts.
Totally agree with Neil JB amongst others. People like Archie & Claire don’t have a clue about the issue. When we bought our lovely home in 2006 there was NO mention of aircraft noise, therefore NO restrictions about what you could and couldn’t do. We knew there was some plane noise, but it didn’t bother us – UNTIL NOW. Port Stephens Council has imposed conditions on us that are disgusting. What’s more they have approved the new residential estate to go ahead at Kings Hill , which incidentally the RAAF are opposed to, so the planes can now fly over homes that were previously not affected by noise. Would Archie/Claire like it if the investment in their home was decreased to half it’s value because they decided to extend a roadway near him, even if the road was there first?? If you work under “they were here first” principle then government could do anything they liked to anybody. Councils and government need to take responsibility for this issue – they approved these housing developments so they should accept some of the blame for the current problem.
Archie.. I’m sick of hearing ‘you built near the RAAF base so you should take what you get’. When I built in Raymond Terrace there were no building restrictions on my land (1999). Under the ANEF 2025, my land is now classified as ‘Unacceptable to build on’ just by changes to the ANEF for a aircraft that is many years off being deliverd (if at all). If you lived near a road that with no consultation/compensation was going to change to a highway with serious building restrictions also being placed on your land (today), would you be happy? Again so that you can maybe understand, it is not about the noise – but it’s effect on the 149 – value of our properties. Funny part about all this is 99%+ of the time it is actually very quite were I live.
people making stupid statements that the base was here first ,don`t understand the problem, its the zonings stupid, people living many kilometers away are suddenly put in these zones created by some boffin in canberra that reduces the value of properties to zero, you can`t even rebuild in the event of accidental loss, homes that will be affected when this new monster,called the joint strike fighter is introduced can be as far away as bobs farm anna bay, fullerton cove, even stockton and parts of newcastle, no bank will lend on affected properties due to the drop in values, I`m not noise affected, but suddenly, port stephen`s council decides to shove me in the second highest zoning, I only built 3 years ago, and was not subject to noise related conditions then, in the darwin suburb of winnellie,the R.A.A.F has moved 500 of their personel at government expense, many ks from the local base, then why not pay for private residents to relocate as well, to all the I`m all right jacks, yoiu may well be next, this shows you don`t have to live near the base to have this monster of an aircraft destroy your life.
It is very frustrating to read comments like those that Claire and Archie have written above; and listen to people who are uninformed or have not experienced the RAAF jets flying over their place, all day and into the night for days at a time like I have experienced. The comment that ‘they were here first’ is silly under these conditions; conditions on a map that were not there when we bought our house in Medowie in 2008. We put our life savings into buying this home in 2008 but with the flick of a pen, someone in Canberra has changed the value of our home. Like Christine said above, the bombing range which is nearby our property, should be moved into the bush land area where no residential homes would be affected. We are a big country – why do we need to have it so dangerously close to residential housing? When the new jets come in 2018, there will be double the noise it is now which will be horrific and a health problem for us all. I can live with the commercial planes flying over but not the RAAF jets.
People like Archie need to understand that Raymond Terrace has been here since 1837, 100 years before the RAAF base was built. There are people only 2.1km from the main street who are so noise affected that if their houses burn down, they won’t be allowed to rebuild under the Australian standard because they live in the “no build zone” that extends up to 10km from the RAAF base.
We purchased our property blissfully inaware of a bombing range within 3klms of our brand new home.
All necessary searches were completed without any indication of the bombing range nearby … neither council or agent advised of this either as we were out of towners from up North, of course we looked for a new home only on weekends & the jets don’t fly then. I suppose the pilots have a couple days off from War games. What about real war times ??? their planes would not be visible or bombing at low altitudes then ??? bombing would be all computerised so what is this training all about when they will never fly that low in real time.
We questioned about the Base & Airport to still not be told of live bombing on a regular basis.
Any flights other than the Raaf jets are not an issue they are up so high it is just a hum & they fly over & keep going in one direction . Not an issue.
But when you have four very noisy jets flying around in circles above your home at very low altitudes for long periods … no watching TV / speaking on the phone / or just peace & quiet / don’t go outside. Maybe people should be thinking about the comments they make…. have all your facts straight.
Original planes which flew at the inception of the base (my father a member of the RAAF during WWW2) the planes were single engines with propellers.
Each time there is a newer / bigger / better jet … the RAAF just extend the flight zones & well, stuff the residents . They are a law unto themselves .
All the RAAF need to do is consider who pays their wages ….. then fly their planes & pilots to up the far north where they already train new pilots anyway. I don’t see what the big deal is ….. tax payers are already footing these fuel bills anyway.
The labour government are on about taxing us more for pollution & carbon … what about the pollution & issues with residents health with the fall out from these jets … most of us here are on tank water … we live in an environmentally sensitive area .
Oh by the way when will the Labour Gov . start taxing the RAAF for all their pollutive ways …. ????????????????
Julia Gillard you were beating your chest about your solar nonsense within 4 klms of huge piles of coal on Kooragang last week …. so hipocrital to tax the mining industry (the beating heart of the Hunter) for carbon pollution but glad to put out your hands for the tax … but then happy to send all this coal overseas to pollute other countries …. ?????
All you knockers get the facts into your head … nobody wants the base to go anywhere just these cowboys buzzing around our heads unnecessarily … for so called training which will never be used in real time … during war you will not see or even here these jets from the ground.
Ask any of the pilots if they would want to be seen from the ground when they go to bomb a target…………….
Hi Archie, RAAF Williamtown had propeller driven aircraft with canvas bodies in the 1940’s, think about any other type of industry which is encroached on by urban sprawl, the base should have been moved before the noise levels became unbearable and that was some years ago,council should never have been allowed to develop under the flight paths, but the RAAF fly where they like so Archie be carefull where you live, be very carefull. Julie
First land grant at Salt Ash, 1836. Church 1876. Salt Ash School 1883. Powered flight 1902. Air Force 1942. Three target areas 1942. Note “areas”, not range.
The existing community and the aircraft grew in tandem. Our forebearers, their families, and people seeking building and farm land populated the district as we developed our communities. The Mirage had flown since 1965, using the targets, ricochet zone, and the entire “area” for training activities. In 1967-68-69 aircraft noise study was undertaken. In 1973 Port Stephens Council received two development applications for subdivision at Salt Ash. What is currently not understood is that in 1973 there was “No way at law” that Council could have the right to refuse a proper application made in terms of the by-laws, or the state Building Act. Senator Lindsay clarified this statement.n who added that refusal would lay Council open to legal action.
Defence bought the F/A-18 Hornet. A Parliamentary Standing Committee was convened in 1983. Consultants produced a Noise Report which referred to activities but concluded with “No specific studies of the health effects of aircraft noise have been undertaken for the project”. The Pollution Control Commission stated that the Hornet did not meet Envirinmental criteria for operations at Salt Ash. The Hornet Environmental Impact Statement was rejected by the Parliamentary Standing Committee who directed Defence and the Dept of Home Affairs to produce a compliant Environmental Impact Statement. The Hornet uses the SAWR without an EIS. A study was conducted to relocate the SAWR. The evidence given to the Parliamentary Standing Committee referred to locating the targets at Hawks Nest when the proposed site was actually eight Km north west of there and was to fly parallel to the Highway. The evedince misled the Committee and the targets stayed at Salt Ash. The 1990 ANEF omitted significant noise impact profiles that were shown in a 1989 study to exceed safe OHMS noise standards by more that 40 dB(A).
The 1990 ANEF expired and after a gap of two years was followed by a an
erroneous 1992-2002 ANEF that was only a copy of the 1990 ANEF Big Swan Bay bombing profile as performed from 1986 to 1990 but omitted from the 1990 ANEF map. The 2002 ANEF profiles were not flown. In 1996 Defence introduced new tracks in Big Swan Bay, and circuits that covered Swan Bay Rd- Old Swan Bay Rd junction back to the targets. Council was not informed of the introduction of these 1996 profiles. Council was sued for negligence.
In 1997 Vipac was engaged to produce a new EIS and ANEF. That ANEF showed profiles that indicated that half of Salt Ash was noise impacted to a level that rendered it “unlivable”. in 1998 a momentous Public meeting was held in Council chambers protesting the new ANEF. The 1997-2005 ANEF was “Not Endorsed” by Defence.
In 2000 PPK Consultants produced a study for the relocation of the SAWR. It was challenged as having been prepared with fraudulent intent. Defence commissioned another relocation study that Defence would not release. They refused the Auditor General access to this third report. Senator Bob Brown caused one copy to be released. The target area proposed by Defence incorporated part of the Myall lakes National Park.This study was so greatly flawed that a Parliamentary Committee should review the entire Salt Ash target fiasco.
The Hornet is still flying without an EIS conducted by an independent authority. In 2004 the new Gazette of the SAWR 29 sq km of the only land over which Defence holds tenure. The Hawk was introduced with an EIS that only covered that aircraft. Where is the EIS that the Parliamentary Standing Committee directed for the Hornet?
With a background like that, would any of you be satisfied with the statement prepared for the Minister for Defence that “Defence ensures that all legislative and regulatory obligations concerning the SAWR are being met?
So we move into the current situation.
For the last 30 years I have lived beside airbases. Before coming to Australia (Raymond Terrace) we lived in the North East of Scotland right next to the airbase Lossiemouth and Kinloss.
The fighter jets flew over our home for most of the day. The difference being that we had triple glazed doors and windows, and naturally the structures of houses in Scotland are more substantial than the houses in Raymond Terrace and surrounding areas.
Lossiemouth and Kinloss had the highest bronchial asthma sufferers in the whole of Scotland. This was attributed to the jets expelling fuel over the sea that got blown onto the coastal area. When you live near an airbase you have to “put up” with noise and jet fuel, but you don’t have to put up with the noise when it effects your living space, at least in Lossiemoth and Kinloss.
My point is that in order to live near flight paths houses need to be triple glazed. This is going to help, but who wants to sit in a triple glazed house in the middle of summer in the Australian heat! If you can afford to have your air-con on full time and are prepared to give up sitting in your garden, you won’t have a problem with noise. Personally I can afford it to have my air-con on continually, and secondly air-con environments are unhealthy.
Living so near to Williamtown and experiencing the jets that keep missing the flight path and going over our roof top is extremely irritating, it does not matter how many times I complain I get the same old response, fundamentally, “put up with, or get out” attitude.
When we first moved into our house in 2005 we converted the front half into a clinic for hypnotherapy and stress management. I can no longer offer longer hypnotherapy due to the jet noise. I have lost 80% of my business because of the new flight run way, which I was never informed was being built. Had I known a flight path was planned to come in my direction I would never have bought this house.
We have joined the group of people that are taking further action through Goodman Law Solicitors, and I would like to thank Andrea from ‘Save our Castle” for all the hard dedicated work she has done in getting us all to where we are now. Up and onwards!
I am a new resident to this area and I am appauled at the noise in the fullerton cove area.When we researched to live here fullerton cove was not in the flight path. Yet we have experienced jets frequently flying over the top of our house at low alttitude at all hours,so much for noise pollution after nine PM.
We are now concerned about the fallout of waste fuel and pollution which may affect our health as we are on tank water as so many other people are in the surrounding communities.
We are currently reminded of the national problems of our failing health system due to lack of Government funding,yet we can afford to buy the latest greatest fighting aircraft at a phenomenal price, let alone the cost of putting them in the air to burn off bucket loads of OUR money that would be better spent elsewhere.
I believe that the RAAF and community can live along side aech other with better stratergies implemented.
For one we could still have full training facilities by using a simulator,then head to a remote location for hands on training where they are not imposing on any community.
As we all know Port Stephens is a beautiful place for everybody to live and raise families,work and retire.Quality of life is what it`s all about let`s not loose site as we are only here for short while.
The JFK`s are not the answer for peace and tranquility(which is the goal).
We have not used a fighter jet in anger since WHEN?
Surely when a gobal giant like Macdonalds get knocked back for a D.A. for noise pollution issues shouldn`t that send alarm bells to the powers that be?
It’s troublesome to stay near Aircraft operation. Jet noise is really worse. The Commonwealth should look after the situation and do the needs for the residents near the RC Aircraft .
As a pilot currently operating out of RAAF base Williamtown, I understand how noisy these fighter aircraft can be, and I know that many of you would take much delight in giving me a piece of your mind. However, what many of you are not seeing is what the real issue is here. Its not about how noisy the aircraft are, nor who was here first, but its about people like you and me who’s properties value is decreasing under the ANEF legislation and this isn’t just the properties in close proximity to the base like Williamtown itself, but its spreading to other locations such as Raymond Terrace, Medowie, Saltash, parts of Maitland and even Bob’s Farm. In all honesty as a RAAFY myself I find it wrong that at the swish of a pen, peoples life time savings and dreams are being cut down when they were not originally affected when they bought the property.
I agree that the Williamtown RAAF base fighter jet flight patterns should just simply be adjusted to stay away from built up areas. They should traverse inland and train over that unpopulated terrain.
Can anybody advise me of how I can add my name to the class action recently initiated?
Not only do the raaf flagrantly disregard citizens rights in the port stephens area, but on occasion illegally fly low over the CBD area of Newcastle, I’ve seen them do it and over my workplace believe it or not as well.
Another strange sight around Newcastle is the sight of black unmarked helicopters with black tinted windows flying low and illegally around Newcastle, I’ve seen them personally up close and I do believe they emanate from the RAAF base at Williamtown, strange, who are they?
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